I don't know if we'd hear anything. A little regular housing. Yeah. It's great. I mean, so they said that thing's all ripped apart. Okay, we'll call the meeting. All right. Yeah, so we can talk on that for sure. Thanks for that information, Teresa. I want to appreciate it. I'd like to know who people are. I agree with you on that. Good morning. I agree. rolling here. Dave, welcome. Thank you. Appreciate it. Want to introduce yourself, Dave, everybody? Maybe they all know. I don't know. No, I don't think I've met very many folks. So Dave McCormick, I've been with the county for quite a while. I was over at the central services department. And I guess a little shy two months ago, I moved over to planning. So that's kind of who I am. I'm a local Horseheads resident, but spent some time in the military before I changed careers and came back to the county. Oh, we sure can. So I'm going to, I'm Tom Sweet. Of course. Everyone knows Tom Sweet. Yeah, there's not many like me. Anyway, Tara, go ahead. I am Tara. I'm with Arbor Housing and Development. I am the project coordinator. Danielle Kenny, I'm the director of real estate development for Arbor. Doug Madison, construction manager for Arbor. Warren Roman, business manager at local 139 Electricians Union, IBW. And board member. And board member. Yeah, one of the early EV charging stations in Elmira too, actually. The first. Yeah. I'm Emma Moran, I'm the director of community development with the city of Elmira. Hello. Joe Roman, I'm new to the board. Joe and I know each other. Every other month. Just for context, so Emma is our secretary of the board, and Joe is the treasurer. Okay. Yes, the treasurer position can be open at any time in the bill. No, we just forget about it. January. Oh, January, okay, sorry. Michelle Johnson, I'm for Corning Community Impact, and I'm a new board member. Okay, hi. I'm President Starmer. I'm from the Steering Committee and our comp plan. And Vice Chair. I'm Mary Rocky. I work with the SEC and I take Minister Lanebank. You know me anyways. Tom, we've got two of our staff here. Allison, I think, already knows our transfer manager. And a new associate planner that we brought on board, Lauren Hotaling. I'm sorry, I didn't hear the name, Dave. Lauren Hotaling. Hi. Sir? I'm Fred White with PAW. He's one of the contractors. Oh, okay. We can't go without these two young ladies over here because they're a very valued support. Emily? I'm Emily Barrett. I'm executive director at Habitat, and I'm a friend of the board. And I'm Teri Dar. I've been helping out for real estate services. Okay, thank you. Okay, Teri, you ready? I am ready. Go ahead. A couple of minutes from today. BECAUSE WE DIDN'T HAVE A FULL BOARD IN AUGUST. OKAY, SO I HAVE A MOTION TO APPROVE THE JULY MINUTES. THANK YOU. SO MOVED. AND A SECOND. THANK YOU, GRANT. ANY QUESTIONS, DISCUSSIONS, ADDITIONS, SUBTRACTIONS? HEARING NONE, ALL OF THEM SAY AYE. AYE. THE ONLY THING WE REALLY HAVE FOR OLD BUSINESS IS THE HOME BUYER DEVELOPMENT PROGRAM AND THE RESOLUTION AND OPTION AGREEMENTS THAT WE'RE WAITING ON FOR THAT. The application is due October 31st, so. I saw the email, any response? No follow up. Do you have the approval to do that? Do you need an approval, maybe with review of staff, or is it good? So that is what we did, I believe, in July. is the board had approved the option agreement for the recommendation from the realtor. And then Heider came in at the end and said, hold on, we need to check to make sure there's no conflict of interest. Okay. There is, we've done our due diligence, we've posted it, we've made sure that the properties were available to people. Nobody wants them and it fits within the land bank's disposition policy because it's creating infill developments that otherwise would not happen. So he said, okay, great, and we need the option agreements drafted, and that has not yet happened. We also included all of that information in the resolution as well. And then you guys are talking to Heider then? Tom is going to follow up. Okay, all right. Perfect follow-ups. Thank you. Sorry, if I would have made that meeting, I wouldn't have known. All right. You're good. So one of the financial reports, And accounting did start including the grant amounts that we request immediately instead of waiting until we get them in, even though there's a pretty quick turnaround time. It just helps the financials balance a little more. And I believe Tara's getting ready to do another request as well. So it shows that deficit of 7,500, but that's not including the amount that we're going to be requesting here shortly. We just paid insurance, so that's showing up in there. Really no other big, huge surprises other than our grounds continue to kill us between mowing costs and the amount of dead trees, broken trees that we're having to remove from the property. That's been a bulk of this 21,000 and I think that's going to be going up a little bit as well. Especially with the new construction in order to set the houses where they need to be. The trees have had to be removed in order to make accommodations. Yeah, I have a question on the demo cost. Is that going to be reimbursed by the grant? If I'm reading it right, the actual is about $107,000 more than we budgeted, okay. Yep, that's all reimbursable. All right, and then environmental, is that part of what you're talking about, or is that something different? We had some unexpected environmental being a 56 versus 33. That page, yeah. Yeah, so we wound up with more properties. Yeah, for that something, okay. So our budget for the year was 50,000, so that budget that it shows, that 33,333, that's a prorated year to date. Right, but will we still be over at the end more than the 56, do you think? We're just about done with that. That's fine, it's, okay. Other than 19 Smith Road would be the only one, but that's not gonna go under LBI, that's just coming out of a restricted curve. Okay, thanks. That's good. That's the only questions I had there, Tom, after a very thorough review of these statements. Can I make a motion? Yeah, sure. We have like another, just to add in real quick, we have like just over another $700,000 that we'll be requesting for disbursements from the current grant that we have. And then also all of the houses, once they sell, they're all net profit. This will improve, yeah. Yes, and we received, I believe it was like $37,000 in home CDBG funds. So once we sell a qualifying property, we'll be able to utilize those funds on a reimbursement as well. Thank you. Yeah, I make a motion, Tom. Thank you. Thank you, and a second. Thank you, Brent. Any questions, discussion? I don't know. Say aye. Aye. Good, perfect, thank you. Two for one. All right, so 325 Weber Place. So we had it about 27.5% complete, about 50% of the change order was completed. We do have Fred here. There are some other concerns that have come up. I'll just try to take over. You want to take over? You want me to take over? I mean, so getting into it, I mean, I can kind of briefly touch on it. Then you can go into it more if you want to. So the proposal that he gave us for the change order didn't include saw cutting the foundation. But I guess after they went back to code, they said, oh, well, you need a full page of what it going to do, even though we had the report. And then that old pager said he had to saw cut to underpin the foundation. Is that pretty well accurate? Yeah, I mean, you can see the slab there. We basically cut the perimeter of it because the way the footers were laid originally was they basically dug down to that level. So the footers, that's why the walls collapsed and so forth. So to get those footers out of there and then to revive the current footers, which right now we have the walls all built and everything. We had to trim away the sides, if you can imagine, because they were in the way of where the footers needed to go. So there was work there. And plus, in that drawing, it extends the flooring to above the footers. So when we get the footers in there, the thought was to rebar that out and extend that floor to the outside of the wall itself. So that said, we have a change order. I don't have the exact amount because I didn't bring that paperwork with me. I guess let me back up a little bit. When we dug this out, you can see the room in there is, it's not like you could just dig it out around the edge, I guess you'd say. We actually dug this out from underneath. Because on this side, you can see the tree line in that first picture. On that side, there is absolutely no room for an excavator. And on this side, as you're looking down here, we basically had to make ourselves a path in order to get down there. It was just a lot of close. To be honest, we hit the supports a couple of times with the excavator because we were so close to it. And even though we were trying to be careful, it was just time consuming. So we went. Just on the excavator, we had to put man hours into that. We went about 7,000, 7,500 over what we had before. What was the total? Because there was... The total as far as... It was actually 14,800. 14,800? 14,800. So that included stuff like... So when the house got lifted up, there was a dollar amount in there for... in his original proposal to reattach all of the duct work, all of the electrical, all of the utilities. When they jacked up the house, all of the... It was just to be reattached in the original proposal. But when they lifted it up, everything dropped. So it all has to be replaced. It either dropped or it got crushed. It was just from the steel beams that went across there. So... Basically, other than register chutes, I'll say, we have to go from the furnace all the way up to basically new trunk all the way up. New trunk, yeah. What else was in there? We have to re-hook up the gas and the water in the sewer. And the sills. Unfortunately with this, if you can see the addition on the back there, that's the one that looks more like plywood than the asphalt shingles there that are inside. That one actually sits about eight inches lower than the rest of the house. So the problem, the rest of the house was supported by these eight by eight beams that ON THE ONE SIDE, TOTALLY GONE. ON THIS SIDE, PROBABLY 50% OF THEM ARE GONE, AND WE'RE GOING TO TAKE THE REST OUT. WE ACTUALLY DID THE, WE STEPPED THE FOUNDATION SUCH THAT WHEN THE HOUSE COMES DOWN NOW, IT MAKES UP FOR THAT 8. SO ON THE BACK SIDE, IT'S GOT ONE LESS. IT'S GOT THE SAME COURSE THAT IT ORIGINALLY HAD. THE NEW SECTION, WE PUT ANOTHER COURSE ON THERE JUST SO THAT WE COULD DO THE ELEVATIONS RIGHT. When we do put the house down, it'll come down flat. That's no fun. What's that? Having a flat house. So that was kind of the biggies, I guess, as the expense goes. Realistically, if we had done what we talked about before we had to do this big change order was we were waiting so long for that proposal from Hunt, the structural stuff. If we had gotten that sooner, we might have pivoted and demoed and rebuilt. It would be hard to rebuild on this property because it's so close with all the new zones and stuff. Well, and not only that, but even if we did and demoed it and rebuilt it, we've seen what the costs for the new builds are. We're still going to be less than that to rehab this and get it back on the market. So it isn't ideal, but it's still the lesser of two evils, I think, because you probably have $40,000 in the demo cost and then another $280,000 in new construction. on what we're doing. So you'd be over $300,000 for a house that you might be able to put on the market for $150,000. Well, we've had a pretty good track record, so we got burned on this one. I agree. Well, I don't think it's too bad. So what's the final change order amount? What was it? $14,800. $14,800. Remind me, back in June, didn't we have a change order? Is that for? I mean, the amount, do you remember? 64. 64. This is on top of the 68. 68, okay. We'll take a motion on the change order. It doesn't matter. We have to do it, like you said. It has to be done. It's this far in, so I'll make Second? Any question or discussion? I just have a quick question related, not related. Emma, would we be able, because this already started, would we be able to use this property for the home fund reimbursement? We wouldn't be able to use anything after, anything earlier than July 1st. Any expenses July 1st, 2025 you could seek. Anything that would happen. So I think they started 4-1, but there was a significant lag in work, so most of the expenses happened. July 10th. As long as you did the environmental review and you have all those documents, that'll be fine. Okay. If the environmental review was done before July 1st, is it still okay? That'll be fine, yes. But all of that has to have happened. You have to do the environmental review and you have to interact with SHPO. Yes, we did all of it. Okay. Yeah, because this is part of LBI as well, so all of that is- That should be fine. The other thing though is that there would be a lien for the affordability period. Yep. Correct, yep. So like what we used to do back in the day. Yes, and it's dependent on how much in home funds go into the property. We'd do the 10 year if we used all of the funds, but okay. So that should help offset some of those costs for this house. Thank you. So we'll go back to the resolution. Any more discussions? All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Thank you. I do have one last thing that you want from me as far as study. If you want to just send me the official change order, then I'll do all the paperwork on our end here. I appreciate that. Thank you. All right, so moving on, 1839 Davis. Do you need me here, anyone? We don't. Thank you for coming. Thank you very much, I appreciate you coming. This is what it looked like beforehand. This one is now 100% complete. Under new business, we have for the approval, I don't know if you want to wait until then or if you want to do it while we're under the property, for a sale price. Sherry has gone out and taken a look at it. She has the TMAs for it. We have a recommended sale price. Do you want to wait until new business? That's based on CMAs and . Do you guys want to have any discussion on that or have any opinions on those? I think that sounds good. It is three bedrooms. We're going to call all at once. All at once, okay, thanks Tom. I think this is the only one that we have that needs to be listed, so. Can we just give you a group visit on a certain date today? If you would like to. We've always recommended or offered to do that in the past. Anyone who wants to go out and look at them as they're completed, we're more than happy to meet. out there and do a walkthrough. We want to try to organize that while we have the entire board here. That sounds terrific. That way we're not sending emails back and forth. We can look next week. Wednesday would probably be the best day for us, but what does everybody else's schedules look like? Was this good? Do you want to do 9 a.m., Tom? No. Let me just put this right out there. The reason I wasn't here in August is I got a new kidney. No, it's good. The only drawback is, see, I came in late because... I'm on a strict schedule of when I'm going to take the medication. 9 o'clock is when I take the medication. So if you want to go 9.30, I'm good. 10 o'clock, I'm good. But 9 o'clock, I'm going to be taking medication. If you think 9.30. I'm okay with that if you guys are okay with that. I'm on IDA sabbatical. No, I won't be here. Sorry. I'm not looking for it. No, I can't make it. Sorry. Are you good at that time? I think so. I've been on the past tours, you know, of places, so. All right, so we'll, Tara will send out an invite just to have it on your calendars. If you're like me, if it's not on my calendar, I'll forget about it. So we'll do that when we get back. You guys are welcome to join as well. Yeah, we can send it to everyone. Lauren, I don't think we have your email address. So we'll just need to grab that. So approval for 152,000. Do we have a motion? I thought we were going to do, we have more? Yeah. Okay, I'm sorry. I thought we had more. It's the only one for now. So Joe, you're right. We'll do the resolution. I just saw your hand racing. There you go. Okay. And David, we'll put you on the hook for the second. Yes, I'll second it. Thank you very much. Any question or discussion on that? I had just a curious question about, not this one in particular, but in general. How long, probably varies, but how long are they typically on the market before we get a buyer and close? Terry, would you like to comment? So last year I did Harcourt for you guys. That was the first one that I was able to do as a disposition instead of an acquisition, and that went within about a week or so, and we got in an offer higher than expected as well. So that went really smooth, very well. This one I did go up a little bit on the higher end of the price, so I'm unsure, but we will see. I think the market still calls for it. And I already have all the paperwork ready. I just have to take the pictures today, and I can have it listed by the end of the day. So I would expect to get showings pretty quickly. And the market usually tells us in the first couple of weeks how many showings we get, if the price is correct or not. I would expect with everything being new and all of the different testing, the phase ones and everything that you do environmental, with all that added and being brand new appliances, brand new everything, usually it's very attractive in all areas. What's the process if somebody comes in with a lower makes an offer. I present any and all offers, and Danielle Kenney is the one that comes back to the board then. Yep, so what we do is we will evaluate what the offer is. Typically, we can put this in the resolution. I have authority to negotiate 10% up or down. And so once we come to, you know, if they offer full price, say, okay, we'll take it, but it's contingent on board approval. And then the next board meeting, we bring that in, and then the board would Thanks. And then we have gotten into the situation, like there's multiple offers to essentially go back and say, all right, give us your best and final. And we can bring both. That's a nice situation to be in, actually. Yes. And there is also an application for the land being specific that goes with these. So they have to submit an application. And we want to make sure that they're not past bad actors and they haven't paid taxes on other houses. We want to make sure they're not going to rent it out. especially with the homes that will have... So this is an owner-occupied thing as opposed to an investor then? Correct. They are owner-occupied. It has to be your main home. And some preference to maybe lower middle income? So for some of them, there are. So like the property on Weber that we're going to be using the home funds on, that will have an 80% AMI requirement. So people will have to submit income verification, and we do that in-house to make sure that they have... sufficient income both to make sure that they're under that cap, but to also pay their bills. We have actually turned people down because they don't have enough income to maintain the property, and we don't want to set them up for failure. So we do those checks as well. Okay, thank you. Is this property income available or is it open market? This one is restricted. This one will be open to all. It's open? Yep. Okay, thank you. Still talking about Davis Street, right? Yep, yes. I got lost for a moment. Okay. Okay, so, one, you're still okay with the resolution? Okay. Dave? Who was second? I don't remember. Okay, thank you very much. We all set on this one? All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Gary, thank you. Just one question. Is that going to have that 10% negotiation power? Oh my gosh, it's a policy, isn't it? I don't know if it's a policy or not. It might be. I just want to make sure that it's in there. You want that in the resolution? Okay. I think just to be safe, that might not be such an idea. Okay, so we need a 10% yes or no. I'll amend my motion. Did you make the motion? I'm sorry, I don't have that in front of me. Sorry, Tom. Thank you. So the resolution now is a 10% plus or minus of 152. Any questions or discussion on that? And Dave, the- We'll second that. Yeah, we'll second that. I'm sorry, right there. Looking over here, Terry. Any more questions on that? Hearing none, all in favor say aye. Aye. All those carried. Okay, Walnut Street. Yeah, 406 South Walnut Street. Again, we are selling a lot across the street. That was a demo with this property. We had discussed that prior. So we do have, I have a little photo of it up there with it. We are in progress right now with construction. Doug did just do another payout. He said he should be done with this one in about, seven business days. So knowing how construction works, it'll be three weeks. Materials are all there, though. Yeah, everything's there. Everything is there. It's just installing everything and then probably two weeks for final cleaning and a bunch of other stuff, just because that's really how construction actually works. So we should have this one ready for people to list next. Next board meeting, yep. That's the goal. It looks a million times better just from the road even, that way. All right, so we'll be on 823. No, I was going to say, when we are doing the kitchens, is there a reason why we don't put in a microwave cabinet? Yeah, we typically do. So the, that is it? Yeah. See it right there? Okay, good, okay, yeah. The picture you see- That's the before picture. It's not done. Okay, that's the before. Okay, perfect. 823 Johnson Street, they just finished the abatement on this for the asbestos the first week of September. So the scope, their in-house specs are pretty much done. So our plan is to try to get those out by the end of the month. We'll send out RFPs for construction on that. That's board meeting for. Contractors? Contractors. That's what we'll shoot for. down since July 30th. I don't think you weren't here at the August meeting able to see it or discuss it. If anyone has any questions or any discussion on it, what to do with the property from here. We did have someone come in and give some information on demonstration gardens. Heidi, are you going to look into that about whether or not we could do that? Because it wouldn't be a house, it would be a demonstration garden. Yeah, whether or not it fits within the disposition policy of the land bank. I'm not sure, but we can look into that. And the neighbor that owns the property behind has inquired, I haven't talked to him this month, but was thinking possibly about buying the lot and duplex or a fourplex there. I think the issue with that is it will, my understanding is it has to be rebuilt to historical standard, because it was a historical property to begin with. And I'm not sure that's something that they're going to want to commit to, because you say historic, and then the price doubles. So right now it's just a lot. We'll have to figure out what we want to do with it. As far as our agreement with SHPO, we have satisfied the requirements. So there's nothing else we have to do on that end. What do we have to do to satisfy SHPO? We already did it. So we had to have an agreement, I forget what it was called, but yes. So we had the historical architect go through, take pictures, give some of the history on the property, and All we said we were going to do was take the property down and make it safe. We did not agree that we would do any rebuilding or anything after that because we didn't want to commit to something that we didn't know. If it were to be sold and rebuilt, it would have to rebuild to some historical standard. Well, it remained empty. Because I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Zim House up in Horses as a historical site, and porch railing is broken. one bottom rail is broken, and the amount of money that's going to cost to repair that, it's still broken. That's one of the big things about that historic, is our building is too. It's like an act of God to try to do something. Yeah. All we take on that railing is go over and put another 2x4 in there and paint it the color that it is. Well, I digress. So is there a relief possible from these restrictions, or is that something not worth pursuing? No. It's in a historical district, and the property was already designated historical, so I think that's a perpetuity thing. It doesn't matter if it's 50 years from now. If somebody wants to rebuild, they're going to have to rebuild it to historic from that time period. It's crazy. That really ties your hands. Basically we hand it over to the city or the county and we just put a plaque on there that says what used to be there and a couple of benches and we walk away. The horse-hitching post out front. It would be good for a community garden. And I know that like Barb's Soup's on, they've bought the building to the south of them. So they're going to expand. They were really excited about the thought of a community garden or something like that for fresh produce. There's a lot of people in that neighborhood that volunteer at the transformation center. If we go community garden, and I know fresh vegetables are fantastic, but I don't want the land bank involved anymore. We turn the property over to somebody because it ends up as a junk pile. Now they had the demonstration garden before at the Lutheran Church in Horseheads by Jubilee, if you'll remember that. It was like 15 years ago, and when they were building the drugstores, that church was going to sell, so the demonstration garden they had there. They took it all apart. And then at one point, they were doing that center colonnade in and they took that all apart on Grand Central Avenue, too, at one point when they were told they couldn't plant in there anymore, too. So. I just see the community gardens up along Route 13 in Ithaca and not attractive. No, they're not. Okay, moving on. So 201 East Miller Street, Danielle and Doug did meet with John just to see what an infill project would look like here. We would need a variance, so we do have it in the new business for approval, because we have to have their approval to apply for the variance. If that is something you guys want us to move forward with, we're happy to do that. This would be a variance to put a structure there? Yes. That's what, asking the city for the variance, right? Yeah, correct. Yeah. Setbacks. Yeah, it's just some setbacks. It's not a ton. And the way that the property is, it's more narrow in the front than it is in the back. So you could situate the house so that you don't need one of variance. But it would need. What's the process of that? Should I ask Emma what the process of that is? And I don't mean to put you on the spot. Did John talk to you through that process? Yeah, he gave us the application, so we'd have to come up with the drawings, fill out the application, we submit it to the zoning board, and then they would review it. Maybe two months? I don't know. It shouldn't be that long of a process. much pushback against it. Yeah, and I would support that. We've always talked as a land back about infill development. This is a perfect example of it, so it's a good idea. There is some more funding available. They're coming up across months, which we've taken a look at, as well as another one. I have to, okay. Okay, yeah, I was just saying that that's, there is more funding if we decided to We need a resolution to authorize a applicant. To apply for the variance, yes. Want to do that now? Okay, thanks, Warren. And Brent, he's right there. So this is a resolution to allow Barbara to apply for a variance for 201 East Miller Street. Any questions, discussion on that? If not, all in favor say aye. Aye. Oh, scary, thank you. All right, so new construction projects. We have 450 Underwood. The contractor has started digging the foundation. They're actually pouring the footers tomorrow. This is the one we did have to take a couple more trees down just because of where the house sat. Things are starting to move along. We'll have our first new construction. And what's the vision for what that house will be? There we go. One step ahead. So it's three bedrooms, two bathrooms, four square foot. This is the radiant floor heating. Yes. I was going to say, in anticipated price, but I'll flip ahead just I think that's on the next slide. Do you have a sense of what the market value of that is going to be? I haven't done anything on that one just yet. I haven't been here for the last couple months, so I didn't even know where we were. However, I know Underwood is a really nice area. It's desirable. So I do believe that this is going to recoup a lot of the money. I don't know what's going in, so I can't say, but I do believe that this is going to be a higher resale value than some of the other ones that we've been I can show you that. We do have slides that have a breakdown of costs. We can go into an executive session and show you that. Yeah, not necessarily, but I just, I mean, you certainly wouldn't want to have something that's inconsistent with the neighborhood, you know, in terms of values and stuff. Ten Olcott, same thing. Chris and his guys have been over there digging out for the new foundation as important No, it's because they have to work out that septic situation that happened. So when the demo contractor went in and demoed it, even though our scope of work did not call for them to demo the septic or collapse the tank, they filled and collapsed the tank in the system. They said, you know, it's just general practice for them to do that for their own safety and the safety of the future, because they don't know what it's going to be. They've been great. said, you know, just let us know and we'll work with you in order to help pay for the cost of the new system and stuff like that. We're working through that with our civil engineer to design a new system, the pricing, and then we'll work with the LCP group, who is the demo contractor, to pay some of that cost for that new system, which actually probably works out better in our situation because when they were digging to try to find, like, this tank here, there's a collapsed tank. So they kept digging back and they found out that there was a few empty cisterns that were just cinder block. So those wouldn't have even passed anything at this point anyway, even though it was pumped and inspected. So now we can get a brand new system and probably only pay half of the cost. And that the style of that house will be the same as the other one. A few slides I have are the Homebuyer Development Project slides, so that's the 610 Folt Street, 802 Oak, and 1006 Oak. Those ones are all free for the option agreements for that Homebuyer Development Program that we just need later. 19 Smith Road. an agreement between the land bank and the county to determine responsibilities for it. We did go back out and take another photo of it because last time we were there it had a shift camper trailer thing, and that has since burnt. So clearly there's been activity there. We were also told that there was someone that had broke in there recently. We're ready to move forward with the delineation process. We just kind of are waiting. We're hiring to have that agreement in place so that if anything is requested in the delineation process, we have that. We want to make sure we have permission to go on the property and submit the documents on behalf of the council. We don't have ownership, so we want to make sure that we can approve it. She said we have permission to. If we wait long enough, it'll burn down too? It's already been the process and it's When you follow up with Hyder about those other things, if you want to follow up with him about that agreement for Smith Road, that would be fantastic. So for the new members, this has been, well, the county took this over on a land, on a tax sale, and it didn't sit there, and the county didn't have money for demolition. So... why don't you give it to the land bank and we have money for demolition. And all the environmentals and everything that is required for demolition is completed. So that was good. It would save the land bank some money. But because of the lack of activity to transfer it over to the land bank, those environmental requirements expired. So it was going to cost the land bank more money. Just trying to get an agreement with the county. We are, it's been at least nine months, maybe more. Okay, thank you very much. I didn't want to go out on a limb and say a year. It was almost a year to the date when we did the photo. Thank you very much. In the delineation process, so what we did was went through and looked at some of the environmentals that we look at when we do any of our other properties that are required with a lot of the funding that we use. And as far as the wetlands, this falls on, Catherine Creek is right behind it. So we have to go through what they call a delineation process because it was positive jurisdiction. We can't do it, but we just have to go through the right process of being able to do it. Is that lot size going to be sufficient to do something with? You cannot rebuild there. You can't because of Catherine Creek being behind it? No. Yeah, the intent is to leave the county as owners and then let them do something with parking there for fishing or benches of some sort or whatever the county wanted to do with it. The water? The town might, yeah. It's up to them to work that out after the fact. At the very least, a parking lot for fishing access. Yeah, there's never enough of that. When you drive a 14-boy, there's nobody there. So someone did reach out to us about two properties. Just put pictures in here because we went out and looked at them. I'm going to let Danielle take over. She's had communication with the gentleman that reached out to us. Yeah, so the owner, I think it was 416 West 3rd and 326 West 4th, emailed 324 West 4th and said, hey, I have these two properties and we want to donate them. Okay, well, we need some more information. They are both multi-family properties that are vacant and have unpaid taxes on them. And I asked what they were, and they said, well, you can figure that out. I did email Anne-Marie and Heider and asked them if they could pull anything to tell me what the unpaid taxes were, if there were any liens or judgments, abatements, etc. And I have not gotten any response back. My expectation is that probably at least $10,000 or more in unpaid taxes. That's just my guess. They said several years, so I'm guessing these will be showing up in the tax sale. Teresa, I don't know if you could, you know, do any research on that. The one has significant fire damage. They would both be teardowns. There's not a lot of salvaging of these. Essentially, I said we would bring it to the board, but they would both be, they would want us to pay the back taxes to donate them. They want no financial responsibility. They want us to take care of the problem for them. Everyone has significant foundational problems all the way around it, too. Neither one of them would be salvageable. So essentially, for each property, we'd be paying about $10,000 to acquire them, and then $20,000 to demo them, and then figuring out whether or not we put a house there. The near-west side did a house at 375 West Clinton. That was a BOCES build. Yeah, that was a land bank house, yeah. So, um, EECOM continues to have an issue with 4th Street. It is really, like, a very lighted neighborhood that is on the cusp of all the development that the city has done. So, while it was my council district, both of those, they're not my legislative district. infill does work in that neighborhood. And I can't remember how much Tony bought that one for. It was 100 and something. I don't know. The person that bought Clinton. I don't know. Yeah, we donated that. Right. Yeah, you did. To the left side as a collaboration. But anything we can do to turn that neighborhood around would be terrific. My concern is that you take care of all of the back taxes and abatements and liens, and you pay everything on it. We'll donate it to you, but that's not really a donation. That's us taking care of their problem. I know it's a city problem. That's up to you guys to decide. That's true, but if we get our end result, it's building a new home and it violates our neighborhood. Yes. So we don't have the money for any of this. So it would kind of be two-fold of it either has to come completely out of our unrestricted funds, or we have to wait to see if we can apply for more money through HCR for another program. So if we applied for funding, we could build a two-story, or we could do a single-story, like CrossMod, which is another conversation that we want to have. But it's really, do we want to acquire these? Are we willing to take on the... We don't know. We don't know what the past due amounts are. They're not forthcoming with that information. So is there something you can come back to us next month with some more information on what those back taxes are and that type of thing? I mean, I agree with Brad. I mean, I certainly think, you know, to take a look at these houses as a demo to help that area. I do agree with you, Danielle, where we're taking on some financial problems of others and where would that stop. My other concern would be, as you remember years ago at the land bank when we were doing demo projects, Land Bank was having, I don't want to say fiscal issues, but we were really cutting in deep some of our revenues. So we have to be careful of that as well when we do these type projects. So if we know that there's a possibility of a grant, there's a possibility of a rebuild, that certainly changes the mix for me. Because otherwise, if we do this across city demo projects, take that hit, you could do it everywhere. So anyway, that's my two cents. But I think you should come back to us with some more information. Yeah, and I tried to get something last week. and was not successful with communication. So, like I said, I don't know. I can get you the back taxes. And Brent's right, Dr. Terry's been all over us trying to get those things fixed. It does look like there are some abatements that have been put onto the taxes, so that's why I'm trying to figure out what else. there be? Are there liens or judgments on the deed that we don't know about? And that would really need to fall on Haider to find out, I think. Is there any recourse in terms of if we did acquire the property, did that hold the current owner responsible for some of that? I mean, that is a bigger legal question. I don't have the answer, but is that something that could be explored? Like, Haider could look into it. There would be some recourse to go after the current owner for taxes. Well, this is the owner that wants us to pay all the back taxes. So there wouldn't be any way that if we agreed to do the project, or to do the demo, to keep it in their hands, for example, that they would then be responsible. I'm just trying to think creatively if there's some way we're going to do the demo piece and they still remain responsible for the taxes. Because I agree, it shouldn't become our responsibility to pay the taxes on it. Well, he's going to lose it either way. So he doesn't really care. Right. He's probably already gotten the closure of insurance from the buyer. Do you know how much our typical acquisitions cost if it's comparable? Yeah, it just depends on the condition of the property. You know, demos can run us anywhere from 10 to 15. It just depends on, you know, you have the out-of-town speculators who don't see that it's a demo. They just see a house that they want to buy. We know the condition of it. Like 224, I think we got for less than 10. We got for like 8 grand. It just varies. Instead of we're relieving some of their taxes as an acquisition cost, does that make people feel different about it? I think that's where you're going. An acquisition cost and acquisition cost, whether it's the $10,000 for taxes for them and it relieves them, or $10,000 we buy a house we know we have to turn down. Does that change the way people know about it? I think we need to know, is it $10,000? Is it $30,000? We definitely don't have enough information to do this. But I'm saying if we're already feeling like, oh, we just don't want to relieve people of taxes, We're curbing ourselves by not having open minds without knowing the numbers. So we can just work on gathering that information. I agree with you, Michelle. Let's get some numbers and take a look at it. I do know that that particular house has been a reason why people who were owner-occupied in that neighborhood left that neighborhood. I heard it over and over, the amount of police activity and squat that would be there. At least twice people locked themselves in and the whole neighborhood was shut down for blocks. That has been, on 4th Street, that has been one of the worst houses in reference to making people leave their neighborhood. It's getting cornered from the mansion. You can even tell. It's getting cornered from the mansion. Yes, it is. Correct. Yeah. So, I mean. You can tell that there's been splatters in and out of there. There's a camp in the back. Yeah. A whole camp set up. The other thought too is that if the county forecloses on it, all of that goes away. And if we bought it at auction, could we get it for less than what that cost would be? Yeah, and that's why I'd be interested to know, they said they're several years behind. Is it two, is it three? Where is it at in the process? Yeah, I'll check on that too. So we took care of the approval for the variance for 201 East Miller Street. We took care of the approval for the Davis Street listing price. We also need approval for, so Arbor just applied for a vacant rental program application. And basically it's 20 units that will be, that are vacant, that are uninhabitable currently. through Chemung, Steuben, and Schuyler County. And they will, I think we applied for five for 75,000, which those will then be rented out to those that are under 60% AMI, and then 15 of them were for 50,000, and those ones will be rented for under 80% AMI. So the intent is to get these uninhabitable units back online so that there are rentals available. We did ask that the land bank, both Steuben and Chemung County, look at partnering with us in that. So Arbor did the application. Arbor will lead it through our home ownership program. They've got other programs similar to that. They've got the capacity to do restrictions that are required to go with it year after year. So we drafted a letter that basically states, If funded, the land bank would be willing to put in maybe $50,000 towards the program to keep the program going with, if there's anything on the outside of environmentals that need to be done or any other things that need to be done that aren't covered within those. The city of Elmira does already have these funds. We could not double dip, so when we applied, we applied for the county the exception of the city of Elmira. So it will include anything outside of the city as far as Schmoan County. So it's a program to help vacant units, small landlords, not big landlords. You can create the application of the program how you want, but the idea would be the smaller landlords, the mom and pops, maybe they had them passed down to them through an estate. can't keep up with them, they need significant rehab, but they don't have the funds to do the work. As long as they agree to a 10 year regulatory compliance, we will give them, depending on the AMI of the people rented there, $50,000 to $75,000 to complete those repairs, with the caveat that it has to have a CFO at the end. So we can't have them say, well, I want a new roof and new windows and we put $50,000 into a project and it's still not rentable. It has to be rentable at the end of it. This is just to kind of help supplement and fill the gaps for them. There is a yearly compliance that needs to be done with it, which is where our homeownership department would come in. And we'll probably follow suit with a lot of the other communities that did it the first round, where there would be an open application process. People would apply, and then there would be a committee that would select, based on a scoring system, who gets these funds. We had to send out letters to just kind of see like what interest is. Schuyler County is also, Joanne Lindstrom from Schuyler County has taken a big part in it as well. There is a lot of interest. I talk to a lot of property owners. It doesn't, like mobile homes don't qualify for it. Anything with more than five units on a property don't qualify for it. So it's keeping them, like she said, the small, smaller units. Yeah, a lot of them I talked to, they have had renters in there, the house burned, or they may have had renters in there that were squatting and stripped the houses, and it just needs a complete overhaul. I know we had talked on this program, and I'm glad Arbor made the application for the three counties. As Emma kind of attests, great program. It's just one more resource for us to take out some of these properties and bring them back to life. So I just think it's a good opportunity for the land bank, and I support it 100%. So I agree. So this is the land bank that's running this? No, Arbor. But we're asking for a small buy-in from the community, from the land bank. Because you also get a buy-in also from the Steuben County one, right? Because I was talking to Jamie about it. And then the application itself was just over $1.2 million. What does the letter say? What's the land bank committing to? So it says, to whom it may concern, I am writing on behalf of the Chemung County Property Development Corporation, known as the Chemung County Land Bank, to express our support. the ongoing partnership and collaborative efforts with Arbor Housing and Development. The Chemung County Land Bank's mission is to acquire and return vacant, abandoned, and or tax delinquent properties within the city of Elmira and Chemung County to uses that support community revitalization, sustained economic development, and improved movement of the financial condition of the city and the county. The vacant rental program shares the same values and commitment to community development that both Chemung County Land Bank and Arbor Housing and Development have been working towards together. It is for this reason that we support Arbor's application for the vacant rental program and pending set aside $50,000 towards repair and rehabilitation efforts, bringing vacant rental units online to increase the supply of needed apartments throughout Chemung County. It's up to $50,000, doesn't mean we have to spend the $50,000. Right. This can be done year after year and we can expand the program, right, and make additional applications or no? So- Isn't that what you do when you get your year? We just did it once. Yeah, so- We're in the first round. Right, right. They're ineligible to apply for this round, I think also because all the funds haven't been spent. So I think there might be an opportunity for them to apply, maybe in round three. My understanding is it was in one of the state budgets for 40 million, and then again the next, there's another 40. From what everyone who's already been funded has been told is once we fully expand, then we might be able to access- Yeah, we'll go again. Joe, you want to make that resolution? I sure will. Thank you, Tom. Yes, I'll make that resolution. Thank you. I heard you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Any questions or discussion on this? We're up to $50,000. Everybody's okay with that? We'll vote. All in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Carried. Thank you. All right, the land bank was awarded another $100,000 for operating costs. This is very similar to the phase one. In the past, we did an application for 300,000, which was 100,000 per year for three years to help offset the administrative costs. This is basically the same thing. So they broke it down in two years, so it'll be 100,000 this year. And that will also offset the administrative costs, so. just get approved for that on 9-1. And it's not on the agenda, because I had to add it prior to me sending it out to Mary, but there is another round. It's called the New York Land Bank Initiative Open Round for Property Services Application. It is open until November 21st. We were looking at applying for that as well. We just wanted to bring it to the table and discuss with you first. It will... include things like standalone development, which we would potentially use for the environmental side and pre-development aspects. There's property acquisition, unrestricted building rehab and development, including new construction, demolition, moderate income owner occupied programs, small rental repair program, other repair or construction activities. So a lot of the same things that we've seen in the phase two. moderate income owner occupied repair program, small rental repair program. So I don't know if we wanted to. So I don't know if some of you are familiar with the home ownership grants where if you're a low income home owner, they'll give you 20, 25,000. There's a deed restriction put on the property and you typically have to be 80% AMI or less. This would go up to 120%. So it would kind of fill that gap of the middle income that people usually make too much to qualify, but make too little to actually do the work. It doesn't fit super smooth into the land bank mission because it's not a vacant home, but it does help keep people in their homes. It is something that I think Arbor would have to have some sort of MOU in place with Arbor to do the long-term compliance. Because again, there's that yearly, they have to check in, they have to make sure the homeowner's still living there. The land bank's just not set up for that long-term regulatory compliance. But the land bank would take on the delivery, the scope of work, working with the homeowners. We would work in conjunction with homeownership as well. They have all those policies and practices in place, so why recreate the wheel? But other non-profits are not allowed to apply for this money. So like Arbor can't apply for this, even though that would be the best fit. Only land banks are allowed to apply for this. So is this the first time that any LBI rounds have included? Yes. It was the idea that maybe the state is looking to expand into this kind of programming. And it's a good idea to different . Yeah, they're looking for different ways to help. you know, different ideas for how to spend the money. They're looking for a lot of production numbers, so that's part of it as well, where there's a lot of, there are people at the state who don't, the numbers don't always work out for what the state goals are when it comes to land banks. So we do a lot of stabilization. Stabilization doesn't count towards production. So there are some people at the state who are trying to figure out how to create the production numbers. And this is one way that they're hoping that can happen. So it is different. This is not something that land banks have done before. I think it would require some sort of MOU for that, like I said, that long term compliance part. And then building in the small administration fee, letting them just take that part on. we would be the ones receiving the money and then paying out to the homeowners to help them with repairs that are needed. So this is kind of like community development programs, correct, Emma? Where they allow people to remodel a bathroom on their first floor so they stay in their home, where they put on a roof, right? Is it the same clicker access money? Yeah, typically they are... There's certain criteria. It can't just be, I want a new bathroom. But if there's electrical issues, if there's septic issues, if they need a new roof, like health and safety concerns. Like furnaces or boilers or things like that. Yeah, and again, it's for those people that are over that 80%. They're just struggling. They don't have the $20,000 to do it, so they don't make enough money, but they still need help. So it's kind of filling that gap. It kind of stops. whole process of the house falling into disrepair and then us either buying it. Yeah, that's why I said it doesn't fit like 100% smoothly into the vacant and foreclosed homes, but it does prevent them from deteriorating further and it does keep people in their homes. And is it rental and owner-occupied or just owner-occupied? I think it's owner-occupied only, yes. Well, there's the two different. Well, there are two different, yeah. There's the owner-occupied and then there's the small rental repair. Okay. And those are separate homes? They are, yeah, so it's, you need to get some more information. So there's seven, the seven different, like, eligible, well, I guess they count it as four, but, so the small rental repair program is, it just says resources available for rental property owners to complete rehabs. It does not give whether they need to rent to a certain AMI, if there is a deed restriction, so I think there needs to be some more information on that. but kind of the typical land bank stuff is in one pot of money, and then these other repair programs are in a second pot of money. My understanding is that you can apply for both, but the maximum amount for anything you apply for is $2 million. Yeah, and, you know, the program is to improve our housing stock, right? So as long as we can make sure it's monitored properly, because we don't want, you know, some of these absentee landlords, you know, taking advantage of the area for sure. But, you know, in looking at this program, I read a little bit about it. Again, I think this is money well spent if we can get this grant money in. And as everyone knows, bigger picture, the reason why the land bank survives is these kind of grants help us do things that the private sector can't. This will help property owners do things that they can't normally do on their own based on their income. So, again, as I look at it, if we're going to give money to people to improve their housing stock, why wouldn't we do that and be able to supervise that through our work? You know, when the land bank started how many years ago? I can't remember. 2016. So, if I do the math real quick, I'm not going to. Eleven years ago, it was crawling. I WASN'T EVEN CRAWLING, BUT I CAN SEE IT BLOSSOMING OUT NOW. AND AS AN ORIGINAL MEMBER OF THE BOARD, THAT WAS MY GOAL, WAS TO SEE THIS BLOSSOM OUT, AND IT IS. SO I THINK THIS IS A GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF, AND EVERYONE ELSE DOES. AND WITH THAT, I WILL TAKE A MOTION TO APPLY AND ACCEPT THESE GRANTS. Emma, did you say second? Emma's doing it. Oh, shoot. We do have a motion and a second to apply and then accept. So it doesn't have to come back. We've got the acceptance. And we'll put together, we'll probably do a combination of both of those so that we have money for our typical land bank operations, especially with some of these new properties. If we acquire these new homes, tax sale coming up, we want to make sure we've got money allocated for that. And then look at... you know, supplementing the rest of, you know, if we can get up to that $2 million, supplementing that with these new programs to bring in. So we'll get those budgets around and at least bring next month for you guys. So you know where to look at it. It sounds like the biggest challenge will be the oversight monitoring reporting on it, really. Yeah, and that's where, like I said, well, we can get an MOU for you guys to review. Since we have a specific department at Arbor Housing that does this, they do the intake, and they do all of that stuff. We can use some of their processes and some of their expertise for getting that off the ground. I think it would be really successful to have that pot of money for people. I suspect there'd be a lot of public interest in it. Yeah, sure. And that would be county-wide, potentially, or what's the- It would be county-wide, yes. Okay. And you did say this is only eligible for land banks, correct? Correct. Okay. And Tom, your point, I've been with the land bank for a long time. The criticism of the land bank, in my opinion, always was, well, it's great. You do five houses a year or 10 houses a year. That's great. You're never really going to get to the root of the problem and address the needs. And as we blossom out, as you say, we really are moving in a direction where if we can take out a lot more property and do a lot more things, maybe we really could have a substantial impact on these communities and really make a significant difference. So I think it's great that we keep doing this stuff. And I think it's great that we keep growing. Sure. Are there any more questions, discussions, or anything? With all that, all in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed? Carried. I think Danielle wants to move on to the cross mods. Yeah, really quick. I know it's been a long meeting, so thank you all for your time and patience. Next week there's also going to be another RFP coming out from the state for the cross mod housing program. So cross mods are, and I have pictures and some information, they are a cross between the modular homes and manufactured homes. So they are built primarily in a factory, kind of like a modular would be. You've got the site work where you have your foundation, utilities set up. They bring them in on two trailers. They put them on place, leg bolt them together, and they sit on that foundation. the trusses that they're brought in on become part of their permanent foundation. The state has a big push for this. What they are going to be doing is an RFP for both land banks to apply for the funds, as well as manufacturers of these cross mods, so that they would have really one select manufacturer, so we would not be able to go out and procure our RFP for these. They would select champion homes or whoever it might be to come in. We would become a authorized reseller of these homes and then put them on the market. Inside, they do look very nice. Typically from the outside, they put skirting around so it doesn't look like a mobile home. It doesn't look like a manufactured home. I think our biggest hiccup, concern with it is long term. are typically sold to the lower AMI households. And per code, since they have a HUD sticker on them, so they wouldn't have to go through the site plan approval and things like that because they have a HUD certification, they would still be considered a manufactured home per the assessor. So in 10 years, if you have somebody who needs owner-occupied repair money, they would not qualify. I've heard from one land bank that if you put it with a permanent structure like a garage, that it changes the assessment and it would make it essentially like a stick builder. That's something that we would want to talk to code about to confirm first. There are some other things that they said the city of Elmira specifically would require crawl spaces. They wouldn't be able to just put them on foundations. So it does significantly low. significantly, it does reduce the cost, maybe about $20,000 to $30,000 per home. Is the service life you expected, life of the property, less than a regular home, you think? It doesn't sound like it would be. Yeah, I mean, it's such a new program, it's hard to say. If you've got a regular foundation and stuff. If you have a regular foundation. The company that just put one we visited a couple weeks ago in Syracuse, for like 300 bucks they do a seven year warranty on everything. So they do look nice inside. You can vary the appliances and the level of detail that you want. From just our experience, again, with knowing the people that are going to be living there, if they run into long term issues down the line, they would not qualify for funding. So is there an opportunity? to put a permanent structure, which then increases your costs, to make it not considered a manufactured home. But that RFP is coming out, and they're looking for land banks to apply for this funding. And they can only be single story. So are you also looking for support, too? I mean, I want to wait until the RFP comes out to see if that's- So we'll get more on this then? Okay. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if you guys have any questions on that. and talk to them more about this whole permanent structure and if that changes the dynamic of the property. And I think that's key for me, you know, is it going to add to the housing stock of the community versus, you know, we all have our concerns about trailers or what have you. So how does it fall there? And if you're talking about a permanent foundation, that certainly changes the mix because then you're really putting a brand new home there. That's right. Yeah, we'll bring more information. I know previous discussions with the state as they were looking for, you know, land banks needed to have a certain amount of property available within a certain distance in order to qualify. We would not have that. They want properties within, like, a walking couple block distance to be able to really utilize the same company. But they might have changed that, so we'll... Did you say First Street? West First Street, yeah. Is that a landmark available? Hey, is that it? Unless you guys wanted to go into the breakdown of how we usually do the slides that have all of the amounts that we're going with. On those pictures? Yeah. You want to see what it's costing? Can we talk about Doug's program? He's been working on how it's going. Absolutely. He's talking about that contractor support thing he's been working on. Contractor training program? Yeah. Yeah, you can talk about it. It's your program. No, I don't take any credit for it. So it started last week. We have 15 people going through it. 15 very energetic, I would say, people. They were asking questions. a lot of younger people there, which was exciting. One was just all the boring introductory stuff and going over health and safety and showing people whether to wear your PPE or you're going to have a finger cut off. And they had to sit there and listen to me talk for an hour and change, which they all come back this week. It's pretty fantastic. It's going to run for another nine weeks. Number 10, we have contractors already lined up to come in to do contract reception, graduation ceremony, so they can actually meet the people that went through the program and hire people right on the spot, hopefully. Can you tell the new board members why you started that? Why I started that? I started it because none of our contractors can find anybody that wants to work. Or not only that wants to work, they'll say that they know construction, but they really don't. was for the screwdriver to hold. And the people that do, they want 50, 60 bucks an hour, which nobody's paying that in this area. So we're just trying to get people back into it. So our goal was to find people that they work. They might already have a full-time job. One of the kids actually We went to Dunkin' Donuts the next morning. He was working the window at Dunkin' Donuts, and he's like, oh, my gosh. He's like, I thought that was your voice and your face. I'm like, well, you're probably not going to forget my voice after hearing me talk for that long last night. But those people that are looking for something that they could make a career out of. Have an apprentice program of sorts. Yeah, I mean, it's more or less just let's give people the basics, like the basic tools to be a functioning member of a construction group. And once they get hired, they're obviously going to learn a lot more in the field. But we'll give them very basic electric, basic plumbing, basic mechanical stuff, weatherization, building envelope. And maybe help point them towards those contractors looking for staff. Yeah, so that week 10 is the graduation. And we're actually having the contractors come in. It's a contractor reception, too. So they're going to meet all those participants and be hiring people right down in there. Super. Let's see. Is details of that program available anywhere online? I don't think anymore, because after we put the application live, it was full within 12 hours. So we took the application and everything down. The goal is to have this be like the pilot program, figure out what worked, what didn't, what did we tweak, lessons learned, and then hopefully be able to continue additional cohorts. We've had talks with Corning Community College about them. kind of taking this on as well for one of their programs and adding some stuff to it. So this is really just kind of our pilot to see, you know, how is this going to work from, you know, fruition through execution. Be comfortable with us including that in county plans or something. Absolutely. This early? Sure, yeah. You think you could send me a brief summary? Sure. Oh, look at that. Right there. There it is. And before we adjourn, you'll see a copy of this. You'll see a proposal from the Land Lawyers Association. I found it on my desk out here. It's a read. Stay home. If we want. Anybody have anything else? With that, I'll take a motion for adjournment. Dave? I'm going to put you on the hook for the second. Thank you very much.