If anybody calls in. Everybody? Good evening everyone. I call to order the April 1st 2026 regular meeting of the Committee on Administrative Finance and Law and Public Services. Mr. Clerk will you please call the roll. The public hearing is called first. Seeing that there is no one, but is there anybody on the phone? Mr. Chairman. Yes. Could I make a motion that we waive the reading of the legal notice? We've still got a first in public participation. All right, I should read the agenda. I'm going by my notes over here. So the public hearing, having been posted, the public hearing. State your name and address for the record and limit your speaking time to three minutes. But anyone here to speak at the public hearing? Going once, anybody here to speak to participate? Three times, anybody here to speak? Seeing none. Anybody on the phone? Mr. Clerk? Seeing none I close the public hearing part of the meeting. We'll go into the regular meeting of the Committee on Administrative Finance and Law. Time is 633. Mr. Clerk will you please call the roll. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Alderman Centeno. Here. Alderwoman Maldonado. Here. Alderwoman Luz Ortiz Luna. Alderman John McNamara. Here. Alderman Francisco Santiago. Present. Alderman Alberto Borreo. Excuse. Alderwoman Dottie DeLurnia. Here. Alderman Jason Gibson. Here. Alderman Robert Smedley. You have seven present, Mr. Chairman, so you have a quorum. Thank you, Mr. Clerk. Mr. Kerr will you please read into the record the notice of the public hearing. FRED PODESTA, Legal Notice City of New Britain. DIRECTOR HERSEY, Mr. Chair I'd like to make a motion to waive the hearing. FRED PODESTA, Alderman Santiago please. DIRECTOR HERSEY, Make a motion to waive the reading of the warrant. FRED PODESTA, Motion is made to waive the reading of the warrant. Do I have a second. Second by Alderman Luz Luna. All in favor. Aye. Motion passes. Now we will go into the meeting part. The first agenda on the agenda is item number 37099 to revise section 115, 619, 744, 762, 116, and 13260 of the code of ordinance to provide increased penalties when citing a ticket for general purposes. animal health, flight, and housing violations. May I have a motion? Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion. Alderman Santiago. I'd like to make a motion to refer to the council with a neutral recommendation. Second. Second by a motion to refer to with a neutral recommendation, second by Alderman Luna. All in favor? No, any discussion? Any discussion? I'm sorry. Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Caleb. Good evening. Could you explain to us what this entails? Sure. So recently in the past couple of years there's been some enabling language at the state of Connecticut that has allowed us to look at our penalties for violations with regards to blight and housing. infestation, things like that. The topics that our code enforcement officers in the health department, the environmental health and the housing inspectors typically respond to. So looking at that enabling language, what we wanted to do was create an increase in the penalties for those kinds of violations. So I want to say first that IT'S MOST IMPORTANT TO MY OFFICE AND TO MY INSPECTORS AND STAFF THAT WHEN WE GO OUT INTO THE FIELD AND WE RESPOND TO A COMPLAINT, OUR SOLE PURPOSE, OUR MAIN PURPOSE IS TO EDUCATE FIRST AND ENFORCE SECOND. SO WHAT WE TRY TO DO IS TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE INDIVIDUAL WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE VIOLATION AND ENCOURAGE THEM TO SEE THE RIGHT WAY TO DO THINGS. within our laws in order in our regulations. When that doesn't happen we do on occasion have to do enforcement. And so this this resolution asked to increase the penalties from ninety nine dollars to one hundred and fifty dollars per violation. And so that's the basis of what this is this is this is on. I have lots of questions. I'm ready. Here we go. First of all, when you say we, how many staff are actually out in the field enforcing or advising? Educating first. Educating, thank you. So we have currently three housing inspectors and we have four sanitarians, so environmental health specialists. that do our code enforcement for a city of 74,000 people. And how much time would you say is devoted? How many hours going out there doing this, educating our residents? So the housing inspectors, that is 100% of their duty. Environmental health has to share that along with the other responsibilities that that office has. Food inspections, cosmetology, lead inspections, things like that. Okay, so... Can you give us some numbers? I know I had asked you for the past couple of years if you could give us the numbers of how many fines were actually handed out and how many were actually paid. Sure. So, and I apologize to the committee. I did have every intention to disseminate this information to each of you. I had some technical difficulties and I couldn't print on anything that I tried to find. So I'll just try to walk you through it. We've kept records back to 2014 when our ticketing program really started to ramp up. 2014 and 2015 saw tickets issued 171 and 394 tickets were issued back then. Since that time it's about average of 400 tickets a year give or take 50 here or there. What happens after that. is a ticket is issued for one violation or five violations, it's up to the property owner then to pay that fine. If the property owner decides not to, then the violations or the citation, the dollar amount, is placed a lien against the land record. And so that lien might stay on the land record until such time as the property owner wants to sell his house. So while we we see in the earlier years there's a high instance that that the amount of fines issued is closer to the amount of dollars received it's only because there's been that many more years subsequent to when they're issued for it to be paid off. So in the last two or three years you're going to see a bigger disparity because there's more there is less time for the individual to have to realize that they have this lien to pay off. And so that's why we see in 2015, $78,000 was written, $63,000 was collected, whereas in, we'll say, last year, or 2024, $105,000 was issued. and $31,000 was collected and it's just a matter of how long it takes for those individuals to pay that back. The city is going to get paid but it might take you selling your house in 20 years for us to get paid. There is no other legal there's no other legal means for us to to to go and collect that that that that money. We're not going to certainly not going to foreclose on a house for for $200. So then. Why would we raise the fine from 99 to 150? Where is the benefit there? So what we're trying to do is we're trying to send a message that any violation is important. And if we don't have bigger teeth to this, the economics of scale have changed over the past, well, nine years since the last time we revisited this. I believe the last change was from 50 to 99. No, I'm sorry. ninety to ninety nine dollars and at that point that was the maximum that the state would allow us to charge and since that that enabling language has raised the ceiling we're moving it up to a point where it's even across all the different concentrations of enforcement housing and play and infestation and animal. And can you tell me out of the various fines that you're handing out. Who is most likely not to pay? It runs the gambit. It really does. It could be an out-of-state landlord that doesn't receive the notice. And we do have a process that we have to follow to make sure that we're notifying someone right or appropriately. We make extensive efforts to make sure that That individual knows that there's a fine. They're issued a letter. The education part, we reach out to them and contact them by phone. We'll leave a door hanger or try to make some kind of notification that there's a violation on the property. We'll issue the fine. The fine will be left on the property, and a letter will be sent to the individual. If that goes unpaid at that time, then our clerk will follow up and start the lien process, and that has several steps of notification to the owner also. So they have every opportunity to understand that that's there. It seems like an awful lot of work, and with, as you said yourself, over the years, increasingly less results. So without putting in that work, we would never get paid back. And it's because of the liens that any of this, without the individuals that do the right thing and pay for their misdeeds. Can you also explain to me why the fines are being issued, each category? In other words, housing, litter, not picking up dog waste. Right. So I mean it. What is included in that? These fines are. Sure, so our, we'll start with blight because there's a chapter 7-42 defines every one of our blight violations. And there's, I don't know, 26 items that are there. And it ranges from a broken window, to a damaged roof, to tall grass, to solid waste on the property. And it pretty much runs the gambit of everything in our blight ordinances. Chapter 13 talks about housing violations, and which could be no heat, or like your furnace doesn't work, or a leaking pipe. Things that are typically on the inside of the building. In other words, the landlord. Well, these are all, every one of these violations is attached to the property. So we're not going after tenants for the wrongdoings of the property owner. The property owner is ultimately responsible to manage their property. And so if a property owner decides, I don't want to cut my grass anymore, we're not going to write a ticket to the tenant. The property owner gets the violation. The violation then is attached by lien on the property land record. So it's all attached to that parcel identification. I know there was some concern about these violations and fines going out, being given beyond what was stated in the original resolution. Is there any? You're going to have to help me with that. I'm not sure what you mean. Okay. I think one of the things was panhandling. Okay. So that's not it. addressed in this. That's chapter, bear with me, I wrote it down. I can answer that question. Thank you, Council. Thank you. So, 1-15 that's in the resolution sets the general penalty. Can you hear me? I'm sorry. I can hear you great. Okay, okay. I just want to make sure. Sets the general penalty for any ordinance section in which there is not a specific penalty identified. But panhandling, which is in 16-146, has a specific fine in that section. It's in 16-151, and it says that the fine is $99. So that would not change. That would not change. 1-15 would only change any ordinance section that doesn't have a specific penalty cited in the ordinance section. Thank you. You're welcome. So another question. As far as the liens, how long are we holding liens on these? Forever. Until they're paid and released. So realistically, we're putting out these fines. We may never see the money back. Well, eventually the house is going to transfer, or that property is going to transfer. And the only way to transfer a property is to have the clean title. SO WHEN I GO TO BUY A HOUSE, I PAY MY ATTORNEY A LOT TO DO A TITLE SEARCH, AND ON THAT TITLE SEARCH, THIS WILL COME UP. IT'S GOING TO SHOW THE LEAN. SO WILL LEANS FROM OUR SOURCE AND THE GAS COMPANY AND THE HOSPITAL AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS. BUT I MEAN, IT COULD BE A RESIDENT THAT JUST, YOU KNOW, PASSES AWAY BEFORE THIS CAN HAPPEN. THE LEAN WON'T GET PAID UNTIL THE HOUSE IS SOLD. RIGHT, EXACTLY, YEP. SO WHEN WE'RE SHOWING THIS IN THE BUDGET, Are we estimating how much money is coming in, realistically, from payment of the liens? This is not part of my revenue. From payment, okay. Yeah. Yeah, this is not a... It just seems... I just question raising the amount because I don't see that the money's coming in, so why are we trying to raise the amount? We're not going to see any more... Well, the money is coming in, and I think that the table that I sent you... SHOWS THAT THERE ARE THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS THAT ARE COMING IN EVERY YEAR. WELL, 12,000 THIS YEAR WITH 108 FINES PUT OUT. 108,000 FINES PUT OUT AND WE RECEIVED $12,000. THAT WAS FOR THE YEAR 2025? 2025. FROM JANUARY TO MAY. AND SO THAT'S... IN 2024, I'M SEEING $105,000 IN FINES WENT OUT and we received 31,000. Yep. So by raising, how much, I mean, and why are people having a hard time paying it? Do they just, are they just trying to buck the system? I got a story for you. Or are they having a hard time economically? Sure, this is, and this is my story for that. It's my war story for this one. I, when I was still an inspector, I went to a property to, respond to a blight violation. There was garbage and tall grass and things like that. And I went and I tried to interact with the person who was living there, the property owner. And I left them a warning and I came back a week later and the violations were still there. So I had to write a violation. I gave the gentleman the ticket. I said, you know, you're going to have to take care of this. He ripped it up in front of me and threw it in my face. So, you know, if somebody doesn't want to, If they want to just fight the system, then, you know, there is no other way for this city to take action against individuals that are breaking our laws than by acting in a way that follows the citation process. And I guess that's my point. The way I see it is if they're not paying at $99, what makes us think they're going to pay at $150? Because at some point they will. All right, thank you. Mr. Chairman. Go ahead. Alderman McNamara, go ahead. Thanks for the information. Can you talk about, this is a general fee increase, fine increase for the things itemized in the ordinance. Correct, plus 1-1-5 which is kind of the catch all for any item that's not defined as having a specific violation. But I take your point that you want to send a message and I'd like to know how does this work in the context of the city's other anti-blight? I'm talking about abandoned properties and other things. It can be ramped up into legal action on these things and is this, I take this fine increase as just a tool for you to utilize. Can you comment on anti-blight efforts in general? Beyond the fines. Yeah, and I guess for my part, my request is to give our staff the tools that we can say to property owners, we will not accept blighted conditions. We will not accept properties that are not well kept. And we mean business in New Britain. And this is how we're going to draw the line in the sand. We're going to increase penalties and we're going to demand that people take care of what they're responsible for. But in general you know our our efforts to address blight you know every year we see an uptick in in complaints and our office typically just to kind of set the table for this our office is a complaint driven office. People call us we respond however When we have the ability, and we did this last year and I'll explain what I plan on doing again this year, we do have some additional grant monies available through the state of Connecticut. And so we allocated some of that money to be applied to some overtime. Last year what we did, and we found it to be very successful, was on two separate occasions throughout the summer, I broke the city down to seven regions for my seven inspectors. I dispatched each inspector to one region and they drove every street in the city of New Britain. Educate first and for second, they went around and put door hangers on every property that had a violation on it as a reminder that you have an obligation to take care of your property. A week later, they went back and if those violations persisted, a ticket was issued. because we were being ignored. And the rights of the people who live next door were being ignored. And it's a lot about your neighbors. If my neighbor doesn't, and this is the broken window theory, and we can get into all that, but if my neighbor's not taking care of their property, that's not fair to me. I pay taxes, so why should somebody else get away with something like that? So what we did see, and the reason why I will say that it was very successful is, Somewhere, you know, in the summer months where we see the highest call volumes for blighted properties, we'll say 120 or so a month. The following month after we did these blight sweeps, the call volume went from about 120 down to about 60. We made an impact. We sent a message that it's not acceptable. I have that money still available to me this year and I'm going to use it. We're going to do this again, and we're going to make sure that people understand that we're not going to accept blighted conditions. We're not going to accept our properties throughout our jurisdiction to be unkempt because it's just not right, and it's against the law. Just one more, Mr. Chairman, and I'll be done. And, of course, as is in the ordinance, these fines assessed are appealable. Yes. There's a process. Absolutely. Constitutional right to appeal. Under state law and recourse. So I just want to say I'm supporting the fee increase for the reasons shared with us tonight. And to that end we don't we don't want to write tickets. We would just want the property. We just want the violations evaded. We just want everybody to take care of their property. So that's that's our goal. But when we have to. We have to have the tools available to us to make sure that we can get compliance and get our point across. Alderman Santiago. So I'm going to go back when I first became Councilman and I remember we went and did a walk through and it was about 118 plus residents homes that were blighted that we had we had listed and that we wanted was concerns and We came back again and went down to about 70 or something like that and then again kept going down and then now it's gone back up again right. And now I just just to kind of piggyback on this was for instance last council meeting I just we submitted two resolutions on just dog feces in four streets I think Lawler Norfolk area that they're because you know and their own dog owners walk their dogs and just allowing the dogs to you know defecate the areas of neighbors you know neighborhoods and homes and you know and it's getting out of hand right now right because you got kids that walks around you got family walks around you know that they have to worry about you know maneuvering around feces and the 150 to be honest it's really nothing. Because again some you know some owners right homeowners or landlords are like you know you know what I'll take care of that in about a year or two. But the problem is is that it's still there and we have to do something about it and we have to push it. I'm one that I got I got a hanger you know I had a washer hey I'm going to be I had a washer that usually I put out in the front because it's metal. A lot of times scrap guy comes around and they come pick it up right. And that's usually the good way to get it from out of your you know your neighborhood. But I guess. One of the guys came around and saw it there before it got taken away, because it got taken away that same day. And they put a hanger up on the house. And I said, well, I'm ready to call someone. But obviously, as soon as I came back out, it was gone. But I do see it. I have one, for instance, down on Pershing. The truck has been abandoned for how long? But what he does is he moves it out, moves it back onto his property. You know what I mean? And so it's like it's a game whereas it's it's it's nonsense because again I see my neighbors right we all maintain our yards maintain our you know everything just kind of because you know you take pride of what you have and I'm not saying they don't take pride it's just maybe someone might not have the capacity to do it because you know they might be elders or things like that but I know there's programs that we've been been been doing because I was part of it that we you know done mowed lawns and painted yard you know fences and things like that. And the education part is the tool that I think a lot of these owners that don't have that you know the power to do need to kind of reach out. And that's one thing I think that we need to start doing more is those like outreaches and say hey in the summers like we did you know there's there are programs out there that will help out some of the homes that are you know in capacity of actually taking care of. DIRECTOR HERSEY- Yeah I mean. We do get some church organizations that come into New Britain and offer services. And when that happens, I make sure that my staff is informed about it. If there are properties where, you know, there is someone who is taking care of the property just becomes too much. And so I try to make sure that my team understands that there are these resources available that we can try to help and support these individuals. Again, we're not out there to be punitive, but we need to have things fixed. And so if we can help connect the two people, connect the organization with the person that needs the help, then we win. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a few questions. With your experience do you see more multi-family houses being fined versus single family houses? It's hard to it's hard we have a lot of multi-families in New Britain so you know on average it probably ekes out a little bit more with multi-families but as a percent of of our housing stock I don't think it's a huge difference. Does that. Okay and so like these these multi-family houses that are being fined or even I mean I should say all the houses because I know there's a lot of single family houses that are not owned by the people that are living there. Do you see the difference between like whether they're outside of this like they the landlords live outside of the state or in the city. Most multifamily dwellings, and there are some folks that are owner occupied, but most of our multifamily dwellings are not owner occupied. That's less with single family homes. There are also rented dwellings in those single family homes, but there's a higher percentage of ownership when you come to a single family residence. I'm only asking these questions because Obviously right like if you're if you're a homeowner you try to keep up with your house you have pride in your house versus if you're just a landlord and I shouldn't say just as there are great landlords. Sure. But if you live out of state or don't live in the city you're not as attentive to your property as you would be if you live in the home. And then the liens you put a lien on a property is that the set amount, like the lien doesn't increase, there's no extra penalties or... There's interest on that lien. There is interest. Okay. I don't, and I apologize, I don't know what that rate is. It's pretty low. But if someone, to your point, if someone leaves a lien on it for 10 years, it's going to be more. Yeah. I mean, we should take care of it sooner than later then. All right. And then, I mean, I'm very... FAMILIAR WITH LEANS BECAUSE A LOT OF DEPARTMENTS DO THAT A LOT OF I WORK FOR SUPPORT ENFORCEMENT THAT'S WHAT LIKE THE OFFICERS DO THEY PUT LEAN ON PROPERTIES FOR CHILD SUPPORT AND YES WE DON'T RIGHT WE DON'T GET PAID QUICKLY BUT THE POINT IS THAT WHEN THEY SELL THE PROPERTY THEN EVENTUALLY YES WE'LL WE'LL GET THE MONEY TO PAY THAT SOME OF THE CITY IS THE SAME WAY I'M GUESSING AND THEN SO IS IT Is it standard practice for the city to kind of keep up with these fees when the state increases it like is that do you think most towns do that or. This only came up because we saw that there was an ability to do an across the board increase. So last year I think it was last year is when that enabling language happened and previous years there might have been an increase in how much we can charge for blight but not for housing and not for animals. So once we're able to get a dollar amount to raise everything up a little bit and I don't think we should I don't think we should charge you know three hundred dollars for tall grass that there's there's a balance to these things. But but I think that I think it's fair time to be able to look at this again and make an increase. DIRECTOR RIVERA- And I know I know that the city does try to work with with the homeowners because we had My dad lives on Eddie Glover Boulevard, and he is real strict about his grass. The lady that, or the guy that lives across the street, lived out of state. And the city came, right, because his grass was very, very tall. And instead of you guys finding him, you guys reached out to him and said, hey, you guys need to cut this grass. And the guy was like, I'll be there Friday. You guys gave him an opportunity instead of finding him. So that that was great. I just wanted to share with that. And I mean so these fees are you know it's not to punish people. It's it's for safety too because elder elder woman Maldonado can back me up on this. I received a complaint during the winter. It was a week later and nobody shoveled This one property never shoveled their sidewalk. And so you have the kids on the street waiting for the bus. That's not safe for them at all. But Elder Woman Maldonado took care of it for us. So I just want to thank you guys. It's not only about the fees and punishing people, it's about safety, especially in this scenario, keeping our kids safe. So thank you. Alderman Santiago. I'll piggyback off of the safety part. You've got residents or renters that have homes that are not safe right because of electrical or water damage or mold or anything like this and you this is a tool where it forces landlords to do something about their homes that they're renting to these individuals and you know it just kind of gives them a push like hey you know I mean it is 150 but if you look at that was the question I was going to ask you. When is the timeline for additional, like say, for instance, you went there in January. We could do it every day. Okay. We can go back every day. It's a case-by-case basis. Typically, you know, our normal procedure is we'll go back, and if it hasn't been done within a week, we have the tool of our Clean and Lean program. Okay. And so if a ticket doesn't work or a couple tickets don't work, then we can refer it and typically that happens and it's the most busy in the summer for for grass cuts and things like that just to keep just to keep that and that's the same process that we have the city as a contractor that we hired CW resources will go to the property maintain the property remove solid waste or tall grass or over go to vegetation and the costs incurred by that will then be be placed on a lien. How many of those cases you had where they would come back at you in like a very frustrated, angry kind of situation? That we have to go to clean, or that. When you have done those. That they just, that they, they just. Right. Well, it happens. Mm-hm. You know, I mean, we see there are some, you know, hard cases that just are adamant that they will not, they will not take care of their properties. And, and again, it, that's usually associated with the structure of the building. We can do a clean and lean and take care of the propped landscaping. That's pretty easy to do. But what we can't do is we can't go and rebuild a roof or, you know, fix broken windows. That's not within the purview of that program. So when that happens and the individual, you know, punts and just says, oh, I'm just not going to do it, then we do increasing enforcement, you know. We will continue to ramp up. HOW WE DO, HOW WE ISSUE TICKETS. ONCE EVERY 10 DAYS, GOES TO TWICE A WEEK, GOES TO SO ON AND SO FORTH. AND ALL THE WHILE, EVEN WHILE THIS IS GOING ON, WE ARE STILL TRYING TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE INDIVIDUAL AND PLEAD WITH THEM TO PLEASE JUST DO THE RIGHT THING AND TAKE CARE OF THESE VIOLATIONS. THERE WAS AT ONE POINT WHEN I FIRST CAME ON ABOUT 20 YEARS AGO, most of our enforcement was done through the criminal court system. And so you know if you had these violations we really didn't have an active ticketing program in the city 20 years ago. At that point if you recall we had there was a huge foreclosure issue and there was a lot of vacant properties and we started to use our ticketing system a lot more vigorously. And while our ticketing program got more aggressive and more useful as a tool for compliance, the judicial court system became a little less easy to navigate. And so it became a really natural handoff between having to go to court and spend a day in the courthouse for tall grass, or we can go and visit 15 properties or five properties and issue with taking one of the next one because there's always more work. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Alderman Maldonado. Caleb, I just wanted to say thank you and also for clarifying the part of panhandling. It was a lot of misinformation out there so a lot of residents were concerned so thank you for clarifying that. Sure. That was actually counsel but I won't take credit for it. Alderman Gibson. Yeah I just have a quick question. Do you know how many individuals are being fined for the blight that have multiple properties. No. I mean we try to keep a short list of property owners kind of frequent fliers and really that list is so that we have contact information for them. We you know we have a couple of ideas where these properties are again. WE'RE TRYING TO EDUCATE FIRST, SO WE'LL MAKE THAT CALL TO EITHER THE OWNER OR THEIR PROPERTY MANAGER TO TRY TO GET A HOLD OF THEM TO GET THEM INTO COMPLIANCE WITH THESE OTHER PROPERTIES. THANK YOU. OKAY. SO DO YOU THINK YOU'RE BEING FORCEFUL ENOUGH WITH THE ENFORCEMENT? I think we try to be even-handed. I'm sorry? I think we try to be even-handed. Forceful is, seems like we're trying to stick it to someone. I don't think we are. I don't want to do that. I don't want my staff to do that. But when the time comes that we have to do enforcement, then yes, I think we're doing, in my opinion, the appropriate amount of pressure is being applied TO THE INDIVIDUAL CASE. YEAH, I'M JUST WONDERING HOW MANY RESIDENTS FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, THIS WILL GO AWAY IF I IGNORE IT. WE WILL NEVER GO AWAY. WE WILL ALWAYS BE THERE TO KEEP AN EYE ON THINGS. SO, AND WITH THAT IN MIND, AND AS YOU SAID, YOU PUT A LEAN ON A PROPERTY, IT'S GOING TO STAY THERE UNTIL THE HOUSE IS SOLD AND HOPEFULLY GETS PAID THEN. SO, I KNOW YOU'RE NOT A BUDGET PERSON, BUT WHEN YOU'RE PREPARING YOUR DEPARTMENT BUDGET, and you're showing your expenses and revenue, how are you, what are you estimating that revenue to be for the year from this particular fine? This is, so when I said, when I said as far as a budget person, this is not a line item in the health department budget. So I don't even speak to it. Okay. Where does it show up? That I couldn't tell you, but I, we could find out. Okay. Maybe for. I believe, I, I believe it comes through property management, because traditionally parking tickets were administered through that office, and I believe it's saved there with how the revenue comes in. Okay, maybe if you can have that answer for us for the council meeting. Thank you. You're welcome. Just a point of information. I think when we get our general fund book, I think those estimates will be when it's, when we get our book to act on at the public hearing. When we get it. I've still been waiting. Haven't seen department budgets. It would be nice to be able to see them. Well, you can look it up. Let's stick to the issue at hand. You'll find those estimates and it's through the finance or other departments. It probably looks at past years but it will be in there. Alderman Luna. One last question. So when you give these the fines on the fine or the notice does it does it say you have the right to appeal this ticket and what to do or where to call. Yep. OK. So on the ticket there is some information at the bottom of the ticket and also as part of our process a letter is issued to the property owner at the address they have listed in our for our tax assessor. So if someone doesn't have the right address they need to update that information because that's where their tax information is also going. But we'll we will excuse me send that letter to their to their address that they have listed and make sure that they've been notified with that has information on how to send in an appeal. And then again, our clerk will walk people through that. People can come in and they will, they're helpful. I've got great staff. Great, thank you. I just want to say thank you. Thank you. Any further discussion? Call the question. I'M SORRY. CALL THE QUESTION, MR. CHAIRMAN. SO MOVED. I'M SORRY. YOU GOT A VOTE. OH, I'M SORRY. YEAH. CALL THE QUESTION. ALL IN FAVOR OF NO FURTHER DISCUSSION, ALL IN FAVOR SAY A. TO CALL THE QUESTION. TO CALL THE QUESTION. AYE. AYE. AYE. NO. I'M OPPOSED. THE AYES HAVE IT. CALL THE QUESTION. PASSES. Any further question on the. No, no it's just a motion to refer to the council. Yeah. Neutral. Neutral. Motion to refer to the common council with a neutral recommendation. All in favor? Aye. Aye. All opposed? No. The ayes have it. One no. The next item of the agenda is item number 37100. to study establishing a new Britain Municipal Identification Card Program. May I have a motion? Mr. Chair, I'd like to make a motion to refer item number 37100 to the council with a fair vote recommendation. Second. Second. Motion made by Alderman Santiago, second by Alderman Luna. Any discussion on the motion? I'm sorry, did we vote on it first? No, we didn't make the discussion. Discussion on the motion? All the women to learn it. So am I asking you the questions? I have a list of questions. I think it's an admirable idea, but With our budget, what I'm anticipating our budget being this year, I don't know that it's the right time to implement this kind of a program. Do we have any indication of what the cost will be? Because this is a study, so that's something we can find later on once we conduct the study, and then after that, that's when we determine if it's something that we can implement this year or the following year. And are we using other cities as examples while we're doing this study to get an idea of the amount of time that's going to be put into it, whether or not we need additional staff? Ongoing, what are we anticipating? Because my understanding is it won't be a one-time program. I MEAN, IF WE'RE GOING TO BE ISSUING OUT THESE CARDS, WHEN PEOPLE LOSE THEIR CARDS, THEY'RE GOING TO BE COMING BACK TO US. SO I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THE TIME THAT'S GOING TO BE INVOLVED IN MAINTAINING THE PROGRAM MOVING FORWARD. SO I HAVE BEEN IN COMMUNICATION WITH HARTFORD RESIDENTS AND ALSO WITH THE PEOPLE THAT IMPLEMENTED THAT IN HARTFORD, AND THEY PROVIDED ME ALL THE EVIDENCE, SO I WILL BE HAPPY TO SHARE IT WITH YOU. AND MAYBE WE CAN REVIEW, EVERYONE CAN REVIEW IT AND PROVIDE MORE ideas to see if this is something that we can do, but it's, for me, I can tell you a lot of the benefits. It's going to help the, I have few, like, it's a proof of identity and residency, access of city services, healthcare access, interaction with law enforcement, and many more. But I understand the part that you're saying about the money, and that's something that we don't want to do it only with one term and not do it with the following term. Yes. But I'm happy to provide you that information and also I can bring you someone that can provide more information about it from cities that they already implemented. So who actually is doing the study for us? So that's something that I'm going to be working with Hartford because they already provide me that information and I'm going to bring it to them and they will guide me. This is my first time so they will guide me what else I have to do and also the lawyers will tell me what are the same things that we can do and we cannot do. Okay. I also have a concern of duplication of efforts. Yes. So... When you say duplication of efforts, what are you referring to? Well, you know, many of our residents already have some type of ID. Maybe not everybody, but many have already some type of ID. So how do we determine who needs a card like this and who doesn't? Does it go to all our residents? Does it just go to... RESIDENTS THAT DON'T CURRENTLY HAVE ANY WAY OF ACCESSING THESE PROGRAMS? SO THIS TYPE OF ID IS VERY HELPFUL FOR RESIDENTS LIKE HOMELESS. WE-WE-THIS IS LIKE A LOT OF PATIENT- I'M SORRY, WHEN I SAY PATIENT, I WORK IN A CLINIC. SO I KNOW THAT A LOT OF HOMELESS, THEY LOST THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE, THEIR IDENTIFICATION, SO IT'S VERY HARD FOR THEM TO FIND DMV ID. SO IT'S EASIER TO PAY $10, $15 THAN PAY find their documents, and they go to the DMV and get the document. That's something that is very hard for them because they don't have that documentation. And the same thing could happen with these cards. They could lose them. And again, my concern, it sounds like it would be an ongoing cost, an ongoing program. I just lost my thought. Let me think a minute. Marketing, again, how do we get the message? Again, I know it's a study you're going to be looking into, but that's another cost we have to think about, marketing, getting the message out to these people. How do we get that? So the marketing that I, the resource, the way that I found is the community-like resources, like hospital advertising, social workers advertising, case manager advertising, the shelter places advertising, and also the city work in conjunction with those agencies to have to make sure that those people that they don't have the DMV or they cannot they don't feel comfortable going to the police station to get to get because I believe the police station they can provide like a way to get the license or the DMV but some of them they don't feel safe going to those locations. So will those organizations be handling this work for us or is it going to be. an office here at City Hall that they come to? No, that's more like outreach. I can tell you the Hartford, the way they have it, they have it in the Hartford Library, and they welcome to go, they don't have to make an appointment, and they are the one who actually process the ID and all that stuff. I think the only fee that we will need to get is more like the machine, because after that with the fee, they basically paying for it. So our homeless residents are going to be paying to get this So there's a lot of agencies, like community health centers, that they pay for it. There's a lot of agencies out there like nonprofit organizations that they actually work with the homeless, they pay for it. Case managers pay for it. Hospitals pay for it. And they would be willing to take this on? That's something that we would need to bring it up to them. OK. Mr. Chair? All right. Alderman Pantero? The purpose of this resolution is a feasible study. So basically that's going to the questions you're asking is probably after that feasible study is taking place because if I'm correct Ms. Cobra counsel this is just basically information that's collectively done by the city and just say OK for instance we refer to Hartford and other New Haven and other entities around that have the same program and then just pick off of it and see how much the cost is for each one of their averages, and then we just, it comes back to us with a report. Am I correct? Oh, let me show myself. Okay, there we go. Sorry, yeah, the resolution is just really calling for the study. It's not calling for the implementation of anything right now. So, yes, you collect all the information, and then the committee can make a decision on how to proceed From there, this study, you have 12 months, according to the resolution, to complete the study. So it's not, according to the resolution, it's not an immediate task that you would have to complete. And then you can decide, once you get all the information, what to do from there. I realize it's a study, and the reason I'm asking the questions is, just to get a sense of whether it's worth moving forward with. Do we know, I think, have you looked into any information yet to, I mean, for the reason of bringing this forward, you must have looked into some of the information from other, from the other cities that use this program. And do we know what the costs are? I mean, any indication of what the cost is to run the program? So the program can be worked in different ways. If it's a nonprofit organization, it doesn't cost anything. If we connect it with a nonprofit organization that is willing to do it, it doesn't cost nothing to the city. So after the study, we can determine what exactly what we can do. And sometimes, the majority of the time, those IDs are waived by an agency, but the city still get the money. Okay I guess that's all the questions I have for now. Alderwoman just Alderwoman just so you know if you go on to the City of Hartford website and you put ID it has a whole listing overviews there are Hartford does have a cost for them but it has different sections that you can take a look at just for your information. Alderman McNamara. Yeah, I just want to say that feasibility is the key word here because I have all those questions, too. And a main feature in that is the economic impact, both on the city and on residents. And that's why I think it's worthwhile to look at it for the reasons stated in the ordinance, which are For those who may have difficulty or barriers to federal or state IDs, that they will give them access to services and also will aid in public safety. If people feel they're a part of the community, they have an ID, they won't say, I'm not going to call the cops because somebody is killing somebody next door. So that's, I think the feasibility is the right way to go. And then we can assess the cost and benefits of it in terms of that. We'll be asking the police. We'll be asking the health department. We'll be asking any way, you know, on their opinions as well. Thank you. Other women to learn it. I don't even know if we need the microphones. I'M ASKING THE QUESTIONS BECAUSE THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE. I MEAN, WE NEED TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS WORTH GOING FORWARD. SO EVEN THOUGH I ASKED THE QUESTIONS NOW, I MAY ASK THEM AGAIN AT THE MEETING, BUT I THINK IT'S WORTH KICKING IT AROUND A LITTLE BIT. THANK YOU. YOU'RE WELCOME. MR. CHAIR? OLDERMAN SANTIAGO. I AGREE. THIS IS WHERE THE HASHING, THE QUESTIONS, AND EVERYTHING DOES GO BY. YOU KNOW, THERE'S TIMES WHERE PEOPLE QUESTION. THIS IS A COMMITTEE, RIGHT? THIS IS WHY WE SENT IT HERE IS FOR US TO GET THE INFORMATION and do our due diligence. And I definitely agree with that 100 percent. I'm just looking at as my concern my main concern was actually the physical because of the feasibility was it is going to be legal right. Is it going to be. And so that's why this part of it is that the feasibility would be a great tool because again obviously we need to know is it legal to have them or is it you know because I was one of the question because remember I remember in check cashing clinics right they used to get those little IDs and if you couldn't catch a check used to give you I.D. so that way you were able to at least cash a check. So I kind of see it going almost similar to that way but more especially for the immigrants and individuals that might not have the capability of getting a state I.D. but at least there's some kind of identification that says that you know I am who I am and the reasons why I'm here. But again it is definitely a cost concern for all of us I think it is especially now being the way things are going. So but I. My question is, I don't know if Corporate Counselor maybe answered this, where would this get sent to for referral, because this would definitely be a referral to a committee or to a department. I think that the committee should have more meetings on this and maybe you want to establish like a separate or a subcommittee of this committee. I don't know, it depends on how you guys want to do it, but you may want to invite people get information. You want to invite someone from Harford to come in and if they're willing to sort of explain how their process works. The idea is for all of you to gather the information that you need in order to move forward. So and I know that Caleb mentioned this earlier in the week so he might have some information about it. But not maybe for tonight, but he might be a resource to you guys as well. So I think. I mean, so does that mean we make a motion to table this for the next meeting? Correct. But this. For the next. No, if we send it to the council, then we're going to table it. So it's better, it is better to table it here and have that information brought in like the individuals you have come here. Because again, we're. you're going to take it out and have the conversation at full council. DIRECTOR RIVERA- We'd have more information. FRED PODESTA. Right. So you it's better to have it here and then have those individuals come here and then we could we're basically we're doing this study. That's what we're doing. We'll be the one the council to do the study. So we could get we would get the Hartford and New Haven maybe reach out to all those entities that have the existing license IDs and we could bring them here and then again actually have our own professionals that you know our members that are in the city itself too that have some familiarities with some kind of you know legalities and stuff. Corporate counsel is one that we could kind of collectively do here because we got 12 months basically you gave us. So I think that's sufficient enough time for us to do some due diligence do our homework and make sure we get something right here before we bring it down to the council for them to be to pass it as what we want it to be. Right. So this is where we would want to do it here anyway. So I mean again a motion to table it. and then we'll continue the conversation. Okay. Yeah, just put your microphone on the back. I'm sorry. When you mentioned table, it means like it's going to stay. So here in the motion, it's actually asking the resolution for a study. Okay. So it's not, when you say tabling, we're not going towards the study. You're tabling it because you're not ready to do the study tonight. So when it's tabled it's going to be carried on the agenda of this committee for the rest of until you take it up again. So at the next meeting for instance if you wanted to invite some folks to come and provide information you can take it off the table gather information and then you can table it again. I mean it's it's how you guys want to do it or you could do a special meeting just on this. No no I understand but I was on an impression that getting all those experts coming it was part of the study. But how are you going to do that as a body if it's not in a committee if it's not if this is the body that's doing it you have to do that at a public meeting as a quorum of the committee do you know just know what I'm saying. Unless your thought was someone else is going to do the study but it's you guys were. are going to be doing the study. You're the ones that are interested in it, so my understanding was that you would be gathering information. Okay, thank you. So, point of information, so I think that court counsel is suggesting that you don't need to send a resolution approving a feasibility study. The committee can in and of itself DO THE FEASIBILITY STUDY ON THIS TOPIC, AND THEN DRAFT A RESOLUTION TO SAY WE'RE GOING TO IMPLEMENT AN I.D. PROGRAM. IS THAT YOUR POINT? YEAH. I MEAN, I GUESS I WASN'T THINKING OF IT IN THAT ASPECT, SO YOU'RE THINKING... THIS IS MERELY A... SEEKING THE COUNCIL APPROVAL, BUT IT MAY BE... THIS SORT OF SETS AN AGENDA FOR THIS COMMITTEE TO GATHER THE INFORMATION, AND SO WE COULD, YOU KNOW, I don't think it slows it down to table and then gather the information. But the next resolution will be a resolution up or down on having an ID program. Does that? Other women are learning. I don't know. I still have thought that we should have a little more information before we send it up because then they're going to be asking questions of us. So I would like to make a motion to table. Motion to table, that's on the floor. Second. Second. Who's second? I didn't second it. I said we need a second. Oh, we need a second. We need a second. Second Alderman Gibson. Alderman Gibson. Alderman Gibson seconds the motion to table it. We know I have the motion for a table. My question is if we pass this over to the council that the resolution is just asking for for the council to approve a feasible study. Am I correct. Is this resolution correctly in saying that you want a feasible study done by the city itself. Right. And so then does that my other question is do we send if we send this back excuse me and it gets passed as a resolution then we have to put another resolution in correct on on on the act of ID correct. DIRECTOR MACKAY. You know that's what's not making sense to me. So you're going to send it back to them asking for a study And then what happens, they're going to approve a study and then you have to have another resolution on the study. I'm trying to figure out what the thought process was here. So if the thought process was just to do a study, do you want more information on whether it's feasible to even recommend that to the council? Mr. Chair, that's my point. Alderman McNamara, yep. If it stays in committee, the information we gathered, the economic impact, the... The benefits to the population can all be assessed, and this resolution could be amended to implement such a program. So I think it can stay in committee. I'm comfortable with that. And, in fact, it may slow the process down to send a feasibility resolution to the council, unless we're going to designate a specific entity in the department to to do the assessment for us, but the buck stops with here. So I don't think it slows it down. I'm supportive of the idea, but we can actually dispose of it favorably or not more quickly. Am I making sense? So you're saying we're going to table it? Well, you guys made a motion already. Yes. You made a motion. Yeah, it's not debatable, by the way. I mean, you're in agreement. I mean, because, you know, this way we can even decide at a further date who to forward the study to. Somebody has to conduct the study, and we don't even know who that is at this point. All right, so on the motion to table it, Alderman De Leonian, second by Alderman Gibson. All in favor of tabling it? Aye. Aye. Alderman Centeno. Yes. Alderwoman Maldonado. No. Alderwoman Luna. No. Alderman McNamara. Yes. Alderman Santiago. No. Alderwoman DeLurnia. Yes. Alderman Gibson. Yes. I HAVE FOUR YESES AND THREE NOES. MOTION TO TABLE HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL. MOTION TO TABLE CARRIES. MOTION TO ADJOURN. FURTHER DISCUSSION? MOTION TO ADJOURN BY ALDERMAN SANTIAGO. ALL IN FAVOR? TIME IS 7.37. THIS MEETING IS ADJOURNED AT 7.37. Good job, Roy.